Ep 46: Red Tape vs. Rights—Why Inclusion Keeps Getting Stuck in the System

Red tape can sound responsible until you realize it often means “wait your turn” while people keep getting hurt. This is Part 2 of my conversation with Jade Pichette, Director of Programs and Advocacy at Pride At Work Canada.

We’re continuing the conversation around what’s needed to modernize the Employment Equity Act in Canada and the frustrating gap between what governments say about inclusion and what they actually implement for LGBTQIA2S+ workers. 

We also wrestle with the question that keeps coming up in policy rooms: how do you price out policy programs when the federal government hasn’t even collected the data to measure it properly? From census data and research gaps to committees, consultations, and the temptation to blame “the previous government,” we dig into how bureaucracy slows down workplace inclusion and why that delay is a political choice more than a technical one. 

We also talk through the push for stronger accountability tools, including the idea of an independent equity commissioner, and why “common sense” without hard data points still matters when communities can describe the realities they face the moment they walk into a workplace.

Then we step back and look at the cultural side of change. We share what it’s like to find unexpected allies across party lines, why queer and trans rights debates feel more polarized right now, and why mainstream queer love stories, even in hyper masculine spaces like hockey, can be so powerful. 

The thread that ties it all together is safety and economics: if you cannot be yourself at work, your opportunities shrink, and equality becomes theoretical.

This episode drops on International Transgender Day of Visibility—so take a moment to show up, speak out, and support the trans community.

Quick heads up—this episode was recorded on March 17, 2026.

And just a few days later, a major update was announced: the National Employment Equity Council was officially launched which brings together 20 labour unions, human rights, advocacy, and community organizations all working to modernize Canada’s employment equity act framework. It’s a step in the right direction and a reflection of years of collective advocacy to make sure Canada’s laws actually reflect today’s workforce.

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Transcript

Why Equity Delays Are Political

Julia Pennella, Host 0:00

Welcome back to Let's Talk Politics, the podcast that breaks down the economic and policy forces shaping your life and where we help you make politics make sense. This is part two of my conversation with Jade Bouchette from Pride at Work Canada. And today we're continuing the conversation on the modernization of the Employment Equity Act. We're talking about the need for political will to get policies across the finish line and the gap between what governments say about inclusion and what they actually deliver for LGBTQIA 2S plus workers. Because here's the question no one wants to answer. How do you price a policy when you haven't even collected the data to measure the problem? We're talking about consensus gaps, endless consultations, committee cycles, and the classic political fallback, well, just blame the last government. But let's be real. When inclusion gets delayed, that's not just bureaucracy, that's a political choice. We also get into what accountability actually looks like, from the push for an independent equity commissioner to why common sense still matters when communities can tell you exactly what discrimination feels like the moment they walk into workplace. You don't always need data points for that. And then we zoom out because policy doesn't exist in a vacuum. We talk about unexpected allies across party lines, why queer and trans rights feel more polarized right now, and why seeing queer love stories, even in spaces like hockey, yes, I'm talking about heated rivalry, can send such a powerful message across the world. Because at the end of the day, this all comes down to one thing. If you can't be yourself at work, your opportunities shrink and equality becomes theoretical. This episode drops on International Transgender Day of Visibility. So make sure you show up, speak out, and support the trans community. Quick heads up! This episode was recorded on March 17, 2026. And just a few days later, a major update was announced. The National Employment Equity Council was officially launched, which brings together 20 labor unions, human rights, advocacy, and community organizations all working together to modernize Canada's Employment Equity Act framework. It's a step in the right direction and a reflection of years of collective advocacy to make sure Canada's laws actually reflect today's workforce. And with that, let's talk politics. We know these are issues. Like I think to the average person, they wouldn't be surprised that a white woman or a man of a visible minority has a little bit more of a leg up or opportunities-wise or economically wise compared to someone who might be part of the queer community or in addition to other identities and culture that's linked to who they are. But yeah, how can we move forward from this red tape and bureaucracy? Like, what do you want to see governments do to actually act on these things? Going back to that earlier question, because I found it was really interesting too in the testimony. Is that the task force also recommended an independent office of the equity commissioner? How do we stop with this red tape and just get to the root of the issue and like let's do it? Stop talking about it and let's just do it.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

That is a great question that I wish we could ask every single liberal MP right now, because the liberals hold the balance of power. If it was a conservative government, we would be having a different conversation in a number of ways. There often is room tape, and I often see it as a situation where it's like, well, we'll placate you. We're still working on the issue. I think when it comes to some of the economic aspects around queer and trans issues, I think one of the challenges we have is we don't have the data at all federally around our communities. And so that ends up becoming more difficult in some of those red tape conversations because it's like, okay, how much is this going to cost? How much is this going to be impacted? And they have these uh very focused questions that we can't necessarily answer because of the fact that we don't have the data. And so the 2026 census is supposedly going to have better data on queer and trans communities. The 2021 census was the first time that trans communities were actually captured in that. And so, as an organization who does our advocacy, we have that challenge of saying, okay, well, we can't give you exact numbers on this because we don't have the federal government stepping in and providing that research. And so there becomes all of these tiny things that add up that become more and more rub tape over time. And I sometimes I just want to say, okay, but let's just do it. Let's just do it, let's just get it done. It is possible to have discussion about issues and uh go deeper in them, but at a certain point when you've delayed for we're going on to year three since the task force, it's an issue of oh, well, that was the former government. And it's like 90% of your government is the former government, so maybe we need to reframe that. So I don't know what the answer is in terms of getting rid of that red tape, but I am supportive of the idea of the office of an equity commissioner. Um, I do think that would be important, and having that independence would be important.

Julia Pennella, Host 6:09

Yeah, and I take your point, and this is where I get a little frustrated with the bureaucracy sometimes. I so I have a master's in public administration. I always joke, I was trained to be a bureaucrat, but I think like a politician. But that can't be an excuse. There's always this finger pointing of well, oh, it was the previous government. Well, you're there. The concept of a bureaucracy is you're supposed to be the stable constant when governments change over. So like act on it. And I do get the importance of data collection. I 100% get it. But at what point do we have to stop saying we know these are issues? You and I or uh someone of a person of color can walk in and we can all very easily explain our different realities and experiences walking into a room. Like at what point do we get to the common sense of it? To yes, again, the data. So to your point, we can price this out and all that stuff. But yeah, there needs to be action. Another thing I want to point to is I work with an organization called Moms at Work. Same conversation with the bureaucracy. Show us the numbers. So they actually went out and did their own survey to find out how many women get laid off during, before, and after pregnancy. So they said, Here, you wanted the numbers? Here it is. Here's our policy analysis, here's the data, let's do something about it. And there's still that disconnect. So I wonder, like, I'm thinking out loud, like, but I'm also wondering at what extent is it? Show me the data to okay, let's act on these things. But we can still start acting or formulating ideas and policy changes before we get the data, right?

Senate Pressure And Committee Cycles

Political Will And Fast Government Action

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I certainly think so. I think there is a lot of opportunity for us to discuss these issues, send them to committee, have the discussion. And you had mentioned the Senate earlier. I mean, that's the entire reason why the Senate was having this discussion. So it was specifically the Standing Committee on Human Rights, and they wanted to see employment equity get addressed, get implemented, and they didn't understand why it was being delayed as it still is. And so they wanted to have a study to bring more awareness to the issue, bring more focus to the issue, and say, hey, let's get it done. The Senate is interested in this. And the senators had very good uh questions for me in terms of how do we do this? And I was joined by some great colleagues from other organizations. And I really think that it is a situation of at the at the end of the day, we can just start having that discussion and get it done. But we need to have that political will.

Unexpected Allies Across Party Lines

Julia Pennella, Host 8:45

Yeah, you took the words right out of my mouth, political will. Because I think, again, all that COVID brought, there was an interesting way of seeing if we want something done, it can get done. There just needs to be political will to push it through and do it. And if enough people are frustrated about it. So I think again, it's so important to be advocates for what you're trying to champion and keeping at it because it's a long haul game. But at the same time, we know governments can flip a switch and make things happen. On that note, as we're just wrapping up, I'm curious. You've been working with the organization for a little over seven years. What has been maybe some of the most surprising conversations that you've had, whether it is with elected officials that you thought, I'm walking to this room, I don't know what to expect, and they maybe like completely surprise you. Did you ever have any of those moments?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I've had a few. I think the moments that have maybe surprised me the most, and maybe this is my bias, to be fair. I am an independent, but I'm also a progressive. Um, and generally me and the conservative party don't necessarily agree on a lot of things. But I was very surprised about how many conservatives actually found this an interesting issue and one that they would be supportive of, especially with some of the anti-trans rhetoric, anti-queer rhetoric that is coming out of the party these days. But that's obviously not shared by everybody. And I mentioned earlier in the conversation a meeting with a conservative from rural Alberta. And that was actually a really interesting experience for me because she surprised me. She was said she was supportive of the community, that she was interested in this work, that she was supportive of this work. Um, she compared it to some of the work that she also very much cared about mothers. And so some of the challenges that mothers work through and have as within our community. And so it was a very powerful conversation for me to say, hey, it doesn't matter the political stripe. There are people on every side of this issue that have supportive pieces that are supportive of the community and don't think that hatred is right. We can disagree about how we get to that um goal, but at the end of the day, we can agree that discrimination is wrong, that every member of the community deserves an equal chance, and that we need to create that space. And so that definitely surprised me. And I've had many surprises in this job over time, but that's definitely one of the ones that stands out for me.

Five-Year Wins And Anti-Trans Laws

Julia Pennella, Host 11:24

Well, that thank you for sharing that. And that's really my goal as well with this podcast is I want to break down this machine and party tent because there's people behind these issues. They put their name forward because they want to impact change, whatever that looks like. And it can be these different types of conversations where you would assume I've also had that where I've walked in with different elected officials. I didn't know how that was gonna go. And I just walked away completely surprised. Same thing on like mom's issues. I think we need to give, to an extent, some elected officials some credit that there's a lot of public scrutiny, but they come with their own backgrounds of maybe they have a trans niece or nephew, or maybe they have someone that's gay in their family. It could be a brother, a sister. I think your point earlier, like the queer community people have been around forever and they're always in our circles. And how can we celebrate them and champion those issues without getting into this polarization or having to be affiliated with like a party ideology? So that's really reassuring to hear. And uh I appreciate you sharing that. One of my last questions for you what are you hoping to maybe achieve or see five years from now? What is one win for the LGBTQ IA2S plus community, either in the workplace or in culture, that you're really hoping that we can get to a point where we're celebrating?

Queer Love Stories In Hockey

SPEAKER_00 12:43

So we are at a time when our celebrations are a bit different. Our celebrations right now have to be, by nature, celebrations of addressing anti-trans, especially legislation. Right now, we see anti-trans legislation existing in two provinces connected to the notwithstanding clause. And I would love to see within five years both of those provinces have full inclusive cultures that include trans people actively, that include queer people actively, and that we never see a law like that in Canada ever again.

Julia Pennella, Host 13:27

100% agree with you. And when we are seeing attacks on the community increasing in certain areas, what does it mean for you also to see queer love stories like heated rivalry or pleberists that are becoming these massive mainstream sensations? What do you think these stories about queer joy, especially in a hyper masculine spaces like hockey, are resonating so deeply with like the public right now? Are you hopeful and see, despite all the loudness, that we're in a time of change and people aren't standing for this old kind of rhetoric?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I think we're in a time of a bit of polarization. So a lot of media that is out there speaks negatively about the community, quite honestly. And so having these moments, whether it's heated rivalry or others that are showcasing our love, our communities, our connections, really goes a long way. And I think one of the pieces of heated rivalry that I love is that it shows queer love, but within a context where people don't feel safe. You know, people don't feel safe to come out and hockey. That's the reality in men's hockey, anyway. Women's hockey is a very different uh conversation. But if we had the examples that we have in women's hockey in men's hockey, rivalry might not be as popular as it is. And so it's really showcasing one of these situations where people want to be free. They want to be who they are. But the reality is, is if you can't be safe in your workplace, whether that's hockey, a sport, or a bank or something else, you are not able to bring your whole self to work. And this goes to my initial hot take, which is economics is everything. And at the end of the day, if we had the economic ability, if we had the economic opportunity that other communities have, we wouldn't have to hide. We wouldn't have to have these moments. And things like heated rivalry might not impact us in the same way, but they do, and it's powerful. And I'm totally a fan, I have to say. I think it would be lovely to see more stories of trans people and trans love going forward, but I'm really happy to see ones like heated rivalry out there.

Being Yourself At Work Matters

Julia Pennella, Host 15:56

And I'm also really happy to see this embrace from different uh politicians as well, like the fact that Mark Carney got the Canada fleece. And it was just, it was so powerful. And I think it also just goes back to the importance of seeing yourself represented in the spaces like politics. So, like I think of Pete Buttigieg in the US, who's openly gay. My previous boss, Seamus Loregan, he was minister of labor and seniors, and as well as natural resources, veterans' affairs, Pascal St. Ange. Uh, she's no longer in politics, but she was the minister of sport, uh, Rob Oliphant. So it's really important to see this representation in all facets, not only obviously media, it's great because it's easier accessible, but uh it's really powerful, I think, to see politicians also embrace this given the climate that we're in. So very well said, Jade. I just want to throw it to you. Is there anything else uh you want to share with the listeners? I know we covered a lot, and I'm really looking forward to see the continued advocacy you're doing at Pride at Work Canada. But I just want to throw it to you for any last words.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

The only final thing I would say, and I I wish I no longer had to say this, but trans people, we're just human. We're just like anyone else. And trans people, queer people, we are part of your communities, we are part of your families, we are part of every space that you're in. And it's important that all of us are able to show our love, are able to show who we are, and that is protected, that is celebrated, and that's safe.

Julia Pennella, Host 17:25

Yeah, I'm getting a little teary-eyed. Uh, yeah, it's so important because we all just want to be loved. We all just want to be part of community and we all just want to be together in harmony, really. So thank you, Jade, for all the great insights and the work you're doing. So keep at it, and I can't wait to have you back at a future date. And hopefully we could talk about the success of the Employment Equity Act getting that uh across the line. So we'll we'll have you back then.