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Ep 30: Money Talks - Why Canada’s Economy Needs Women Now

• Julia Pennella • Season 1 • Episode 30

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Money talks, and what it's saying about gender equality in Canada isn't pretty. We've left  $180 billion of GDP growth on the table by failing to ensure women's full participation in our economy. That's not just a moral failing—it's economic malpractice.

Joining us once again to break it all down is Marwa Abdou, Senior Research Director at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce’s Business Data Lab — and what she uncovered is nothing short of sobering. At our current pace, we won't see gender equality in our lifetimes, our daughters' lifetimes, or even our granddaughters' lifetimes. Canada ranks among the worst developed nations for pay equity, with women earning just 87 cents for every dollar earned by men—and even less for women of color.

The barriers are systemic and deeply entrenched. While male-dominated industries like manufacturing, resource extraction, and construction are making progress, they’re still far from being truly welcoming environments for women to enter and thrive. Women entrepreneurs face steeper challenges accessing capital, especially in the Prairies and Atlantic provinces, where support ecosystems are thinner and traditional industries dominate. And while we talk about diversity and inclusion, too often it remains performative rather than transformative.

Real accountability means embedding equity goals into how organizations evaluate power, performance, and progress. Marwa suggests, this means linking diversity targets to executive compensation, establishing representation goals that reflect talent pool demographics rather than maintaining the status quo, and implementing rigorous audit systems. We need to move beyond training sessions and toward structural change that recognizes women's economic participation isn't optional—it's essential.

For young women considering entrepreneurship, Marwa’s message is clear: "You belong here, even if it doesn't feel like it yet. The business world perhaps wasn't built with you in mind, but that doesn't mean you can't build something extraordinary within it." Start messy, start small, but start—and demand not just inclusion, but the opportunity to lead and transform.

Listen now to explore how accelerating gender equality isn't just about doing what's right—it's about building the resilient, innovative economy Canada needs.

Check out Marwa Abdou’s work here: 

Barely Breaking Ground: The Slow Stride of Progress for Women in Business Leadership and Entrepreneurship: https://businessdatalab.ca/publications/barely-breaking-ground/

Women Entrepreneurs: Canada’s Biggest Missed Business Opportunity: https://businessdatalab.ca/publications/women-entrepreneurs-canadas-biggest-missed-business-opportunity/ 


Julia Pennella:

Welcome back to another episode where we break down the political headlines, economic trends and policy moves shaping our world, without the jargon overload. So here's a thought. What if I told you Canada is leaving billions on the table every year, not because of bad investments or trade deals, but because women still aren't being paid equally, promoted fairly or supported with the infrastructure they need to fully participate in the economy. Sounds familiar, right? According to a United Nations report, at the current rate it will take an estimated 300 years to end child marriage, 140 years for women to be represented equally in positions of power and leadership in the workplace and 47 years to achieve equal representation in national parliaments. That's not a timeline. That's a warning. You might be thinking well, I'm in Canada, our numbers can't be that bad. Well, think again. Canada ranks among one of the worst in the developed world when it comes to pay equity. And while we've heard the stats before, here's what doesn't get enough attention that this inequity and inequality is costing us big time. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce estimates that excluding women from full participation in the workforce has costed our GDP nearly $180 billion. So today we're diving into the economics of gender equity and equality, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it's the smart thing to do, and I'm joined today by someone who knows the numbers inside and out.

Julia Pennella:

Marwa is Senior Research Director with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce's Business Data Lab and the host of Canada's Economy Explained podcast. Before that, she served as Economic Advisor to Egypt's Minister of International Cooperation and she's worked with global heavyweights like the World Bank, OECD and the Asian Development Bank. Whether it's regulatory reform or data-driven storytelling, her work always centers on one mission driving impact for those too often left out of the conversation. And today she's here to share her insights on what Canada needs to do next to strengthen its economy and how we can make sure women are part of that progress. So let's get into it. In the report, one of the recommendations was to hold senior leaders accountable for diversity goals. So what does real accountability look like in this context, beyond just checking a box to say, you know, we've hired a woman? Like how can it actually be meaningful and what does that actually bring to the culture of that organization?

Marwa Abdou:

Yeah, that's definitely an important question. The culture of that organization? Yeah, that's definitely an important question. Of course you know, and again, to move beyond box checking, what we need to think about is that real accountability means that we are embedding equity goals into the way organizations effectively evaluate power, how they evaluate performance and how they evaluate progress, especially at the top. So, thinking about linking diversity goals to executive pay and performance reviews, tying bonuses and stock options and performance evaluations for CEOs and senior executives to perhaps to clearly define diversity and inclusion metrics and that can help sort of connect some of these siloed pieces of the system.

Marwa Abdou:

Things like setting ambitious and effectively not aspirational representation targets. Targets should really reflect the demographics I think of the talent pool and not the status quo. Reflect the demographics I think of the talent pool and not the status quo. Things like using cascading accountability and holding every department leader accountable for achieving things like diversity targets and moving our thinking beyond training into more rigorous audit systems where we are seeing that we're actually walking the talk and not just talking the talk. Ultimately, I think accountability means risk and reward are on the line and, just like with any other business priority, we need to be mindful that diversity targets are treated, in a way or another, still like optional optics. I mean, especially in this environment, where DEI is no longer a lens that we are, or let's say it's becoming less of, as a universal lens, although an imperfect one, where we can sort of start the conversation. We need to be mindful that compensation, transparency and career advancements are really going to be the real metrics and the force for structural change.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said and I think the element of that too is mentorship and having, whether it be cross communication in departments, but having someone, I think as well, to be able to speak to and understand the realities hopefully helps make a bit more of an equitable environment to understand. You know, I'm not a threat. I'm here to actually help you because I still, unfortunately, think that that is a barrier for a lot of women. I think the evolution of the workplace has changed since then because we're seeing a lot more senior leadership, but you know, that threat still does persist and you said it as well and I'd be interested in if you have any data that you can share.

Julia Pennella:

But the piece around pay transparency, yeah, why is that critical for women and other underrepresented groups or minorities to understand what everybody's making in the workplace? Or or maybe you disagree with the point, but I'm curious because I think a lot of data shows that if we're not talking about money, you're actually doing a disservice to yourself and earning less than your male counterparts or your colleagues. We know the data as well. I think it's 88 cents every dollar a white man makes. For a minority person it's even less than that. But like, what role does paid transparency have in whether it is climbing the corporate ladder or getting into those boardrooms? If there's any data you can share, yeah, I mean in my opinion at the Barely Breaking Ground report.

Marwa Abdou:

The reason why I think it was so well received widely breaking ground report, the reason why I think it was so well received widely I think it got a little bit below the 30,000 foot level in terms of maybe breaking down some of the compensation and representation gaps that exist across Canada's management positions for women, across geographies, across industries, and while it was kind of fascinating to, a lot of women weren't surprised, but it was also kind of sobering because you're situating yourself in a time where what inspired the research was the UN Secretary General had said that you know, women won't reach equal, for until I think it was 2100 or some bizarre year that feels so far away, and so I wanted to see where Canada fit in that trajectory. And it was a similar number. Looking at, if we continue on the path that we are on, you know we're not going to see it in our daughter's lifetime, we're not going to see it in our granddaughter's lifetime and that's a pretty sobering fact to sit with. So I think ultimately that's the money piece is critical.

Marwa Abdou:

I think we need to be thinking about how we build power and redesign the systems that keep women on the margins of Canada's economy and, ultimately, if you don't empower and show that you value women, with how much you pay them and compensate them and ensure that you are building an economy that works with them in mind, that is inclusive of their challenges, of their day-to-day experiences, of the kinds of services that they need in order to be productive members of this society, that don't train them to take part in innovative sectors that are going to be the bedrock of the future, or what we need for them to be the bedrock for the future, be it technology, green tech, healthcare, digital health is going to be something that is going to be important, and we know from the data that women are more likely to take leaps in those sectors. So you need to be thinking about how do you empower them across the pipeline, train them for technology that is advanced, that is going to be effective in helping them navigate some of these existing barriers.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said. And a few things. I want to say how I remember when that UN report came out, that figure was very jarring not surprising, but definitely jarring, and I'm glad that kind of inspired you to even look further into this. And unfortunately, if I'm not mistaken, I think that number is also only relevant to maybe wealthier countries, right? So we're not even factoring in underdeveloped countries. Absolutely Untapped potential there. If women have access to education, health care, all these dominated. Still, what needs to shift to open those doors? You touched on a few themes of skills, retraining, regulation, but is there anything else, maybe more specific to those industries, that needs to shift to create those opportunities for women to jump in?

Marwa Abdou:

Yeah, absolutely so. That's a very excellent and timely question. I think these are precisely the sectors that are driving growth. They're the sectors that are you know of. That has to do if you think about the manufacturing sector in Canada and I think this point also applies to other sectors, but particularly in the manufacturing sector, which is responsible for Canada's total growth, 10% of Canada's economies you think about historical legacies and gender norms that have persisted in that sector alone.

Marwa Abdou:

You think about industries that were really built on decades of exclusion, where masculine traits, including things like risk-taking in terms of the physical demands to perform certain jobs, those were things that were normalized in a lot of these sectors and the culture has been resistant to change. So women are routinely underrepresented in, also post-secondary pathways in those sectors. You think about engineering, trades, computer science. A lot of that gender stereotyping takes hold even before women enter the labor market in those sectors.

Marwa Abdou:

Another thing that I want to talk about is procurement and financing barriers, particularly women-led firms in construction, in tech, in resource extraction. They're less likely to receive large-scale contracts or procurement deals, especially from government or corporate clients. Access to capital, again, and insurance is more difficult in those high-cost, high-regulation industries. So you can go on and on. Things like the work structures in those industries. There's rigid schedules, long hours and travel requirements that often, again, disproportionately and by design exclude women who have caregiving responsibilities. So again, disproportionately and by design, exclude women who have caregiving responsibilities. So again, it's one of those things is, as soon as you pull the thread you realize how much there is to tackle and it can feel daunting, but we know it's not impossible.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said, and I really like that visual. Once you pull the thread, it just keeps going. I appreciate that analysis and I do want to maybe bring it more focused in Canada and I want to talk about locations. The gender gap in entrepreneurship is especially high in the Prairies and Atlantic provinces. What's going on regionally that might be driving these disparities in those areas specifically?

Marwa Abdou:

Yeah, so regional context matters and it was also important because it really shapes who becomes and who succeeds as an entrepreneur. So it's not the only thing, but it does play a role. So gender gaps and entrepreneurship do exist across Canada, but they are starkest, like you said, in those geographies. A lot of that has to do with and I haven't done detailed analysis on this but if you look at even just economic structures and sectors that are skewed towards more male-dominated industries, so regions where economies are more reliant on things like resource extraction, agriculture, manufacturing, construction, like I said, those are historically male-dominated sectors and industries and we see that in the data and that's why you're also seeing less and less women owned or majority women-owned businesses in those regions.

Marwa Abdou:

Another thing that obviously plays a factor is there's also regions where there's limited ecosystems of support for women entrepreneurs, so that rural aspect is going to bear impact on how inclusive those geographies are. There's fewer incubators, accelerators, mentorship networks or venture hubs that are focused on women or equity-seeking entrepreneurs in those regions. Thinking about access to capital, rural and smaller communities are going to face fewer local lenders are going to have access to less investors, less grant programs. Thinking about these dynamics is going to be crucial, and again, the child care and infrastructure gap piece right. Canada continues to really struggle in terms of harmonizing some of these policies across the board, and so those variances across provinces and territories are going to have an impact on how inclusive some of these industries are.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said and really what I think taking from that is some of those areas already struggle with that economic growth because of that rurality or again, that access to think tanks or venture capital, and then you add the layer of the complexities and hurdles women already experience and it just kind of creates this pot of even more challenges. So we talked to Canada and I want to bring it back more broadly with the International Women's Day. 2025 theme was Accelerate Action. What does real acceleration look like to you and what could a win in this space for women look like five years from now, do you think?

Marwa Abdou:

So, given how many times I think we've heard the phrase yeah, we've made some progress, but it's still glacial, that theme of accelerate action was quite appropriate, I think, and in the context of this moment and as we look at the broader challenges that we're hoping to tackle, the idea here is, the challenge is no longer whether we recognize the problem. It's whether we're willing to retool the system to deliver the results that we need at scale and at the speed that we need it. Acceleration, to me at least, means building urgency into accountability. Do we need bold and innovative and coordinated moves across a myriad of things, across finance, across policy, across procurement, across leadership, and it's not just on government. I think every stakeholder in our economy has a role to play.

Marwa Abdou:

Thinking about a future state and what that looks like five years from now. You know, one could dream, Given the data. I'm also trying to think more pragmatically in terms of what we can achieve, but I think a doubling of women-led businesses who are receiving, for instance, venture, angel and scale-up funding would be wow. That would be a really concrete and tangible achievement that we can focus on. Thinking about major banks and funds, publishing disaggregated data by gender, by race, looking at how equity is baked into economic recovery. So again I mentioned this, thinking about trade missions, infrastructure projects, green economy, investments that intentionally include women-led firms, procurement targets. So these are all components that are going to be great to imagine for a future state in our economy tax policies removing unnecessary red tape and regulatory burdens that continue to prohibit women from trading with locally, provincially, with global economies. Looking at EI, parental leave to entrepreneurs you know these are all going to be parts of acceleration and that means rewriting the story of who gets to lead, who gets to build and who gets to innovate in Canada.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, I love that. That was a great point there. Especially, it's not just one issue and I'm hopeful, with the new government session starting, we can merge these economic pieces because the data is telling the story. We just need to actually implement it. Now to that social lens, as you mentioned, and as we're just wrapping up here, we did talk a lot about barriers and challenges, so I want to switch it a little bit more optimistically. But you know, if you could speak directly to a young woman considering launching a business in Canada right now, what would you want her to know and, more broadly, what would you want her to demand to make sure that she's successful in the space she's trying to grow in?

Marwa Abdou:

Oh, wow, okay. Well, what I would like her to know is, very simply you belong here, even if it doesn't feel like it yet. The business world perhaps wasn't built with you in mind, but that doesn't mean that you can't build something that's extraordinary within it, that can reshape the way that we think about how business is done. The other thing that I thought was interesting in the data that I think about is it's so simple. There is one figure where we looked at women reporting whether or not they thought they had the necessary skills to start a business. Women, even ones who are incredibly qualified and have so much innovation and have a great ideation for business, they'll almost always discount their abilities or think that others are more qualified than they are. So I think another piece of advice is you don't need to have all the answers. Start messy, start small, but just start, and you know the systems may not be fair, but your ideas, your leadership, your impact are needed, and that's how we're going to make progress happen.

Marwa Abdou:

In terms of what I would perhaps want her to demand, we talk a lot about the financing piece capital that sees her, that values her, that bets on her. I would love to see a system that supports not just the business but the person building it. We need to think about intersectional equity, not just trickle down inclusion. So if a policy or a fund doesn't include racialized, indigenous, disabled, newcomer or LGBTQ plus entrepreneurs, we're also fracturing in that gender piece from the start. Then what are we doing in terms of building the kinds of systems that we say we want to exist? So to some I would say you're not entering a system that is likely ready or perhaps made for you in the same magnitude that it perhaps is made for others, but you're entering a system that needs you. So bring your boldness and your whole self and don't settle for just being included. Demand to own and to lead and to transform the way things are done.

Julia Pennella:

I love that. Demand your space and own it. You're right. I think sometimes we talk ourselves out of it. Then you just got to kind of stick it out and it's uncomfortable. But I think the broader piece is it's going to pay off. Like you said, the data is showing us there is that demand. We want more female leaders, so I want to echo your points. But, marwa, this was a really great conversation. I want to thank you so much for all the data and policy and everything else in between we covered. It was a big topic and I'm sure we could talk hours on it. But are there any other closing thoughts you want to share with the listeners?

Marwa Abdou:

No, thank you so much for bringing me on the show and you know, again, this topic is one that has been talked about a lot, but I hope that listeners who are listening to this conversation can see the complexity and the nuance that is required in terms of thinking of all the parts and pieces of an ecosystem that either reinforce archaic ways of thinking and don't serve us any longer, especially in this moment in time where we are thinking of how we can be more resilient, how we can build more resilient economies that can be inclusive and can capitalize. Again, it's not just a value. There's tangible economic opportunity to be gained here from building the kind of economy that is diverse, that is inclusive, that really capitalizes on resources that we have at hand and the very valuable population that we have, and that includes the breadth of it, from women to underrepresented groups, to the disparities that exist geography-wise, industry-wise. We need to be thinking about how we turn those into opportunities that serve us.

Julia Pennella:

Well said. What a way to end it. And yet there's nothing like a chaotic moment to, I think, bring more innovation and spur that perseverance and resilience that needs to come in the market, so that was a great way to end it. That was Marwa Abdu. She's the Senior Research Director at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and Business Lab and also new to the podcasting world, so make sure to check out her podcast Canada's Economy Explained. And that was a wrap. Make sure to tune in next week for my next special guest and we'll catch you there.