Let's Talk Politics

Ep 18: Finance Daddy vs. The Backbencher - Canada's Political Plot Twist

• Julia Pennella

Share episode

Send us a text

The 2025 Canadian federal election will be remembered as one of the most remarkable political comebacks in the country’s history. Against overwhelming odds, Mark Carney led the Liberal Party from a staggering 24-point deficit to a minority government victory — just shy of a majority — while also securing the popular vote. A sweet triumph over Pierre Poilievre's Conservatives.

This wasn’t your typical election. Canadians were casting their votes with an eye on the global stage — in a world where Donald Trump’s America posed direct threats to Canada’s sovereignty and economic security. In the end, voters chose stability over slogans, experience over experimentation, and a leader they believed could stand toe-to-toe with Trump at the negotiating table.

While Conservatives avoided discussing Trump's threatened tariffs, Carney positioned himself as the steady hand needed to navigate economic turbulence. As liberal strategist Pierce Collier explains, "The voters are the ones who set the issues... they told us very loud and clear that Trump was their number one concern."

The Conservatives post-election response reveals deeper issues within the party. Rather than acknowledging strategic missteps, some members blamed provincial Conservative leaders – what Collier calls "loser talk from people who have won nothing." The federal Conservative party now faces a potential leadership review while Alberta's Premier introduces legislation making referendums on separation easier.

This episode offers unprecedented insight into campaign strategy, voter psychology, and the delicate balance between domestic concerns and international pressures. Whether you're a political junkie or simply curious about Canada's future, you'll gain valuable perspective on one of the most consequential elections in Canadian history.

Don't miss part two as we continue unpacking this historic political moment and what it means for Canada's relationship with our southern neighbor.

Quick Heads up: this episode was recorded on April 30, 2025, so while the news may have changed since this conversation was recorded, the thoughts and ideas still remain relevant. 


Julia Pennella:

Welcome back to let's Talk Politics. April 28th 2025 will go down in Canadian political history Against all odds. After months of trailing badly in the polls, the Liberals pulled off a shocking comeback and won another minority government. Yep, they beat the Conservatives who, let's not forget, had a 24-point lead in the polls just a few months ago. But this wasn't your average election. It wasn't just about policies or the parties. The real game-changer, the looming shadow of Donald Trump. Now imagine telling Canada's founding fathers that our nation's future might hinge on the threat of an American president like Trump. It probably would have left them scratching their head. Yet that's exactly what this election became, and Canadians made their choice. Canadians weren't just voting on party lines. They were choosing how they wanted to show up on the global stage and, and when it came down to it, they chose stability over slogans. They chose Mark Carney In a nail-biting, history-making night. Some writings decided by just a dozen votes. The Liberals pulled off an unthinkable comeback and even won the popular vote. Mark Carney didn't just revive the Liberal Party, he even unseated two major party leaders. On election night, jagmeet Singh announced he'll be stepping down as leader.

Julia Pennella:

After the NDP lost official party status, the Conservatives are also in a bit of a disarray after their leader, pierre Polyab, was unseated in his riding that he'd held for 20 years. Conservative MP-elect Damien Couric from Alberta is now stepping aside to give Polyev a shot at returning through a by-election. And now there's buzz about a possible leadership review for the Conservatives. If 20% of the Conservative caucus signs on, it could trigger a secret ballot vote to remove Polyev, just like what happened with Erin O'Toole after the 2021 election. So the big question remains are the Conservatives going to rally behind their leader, or are we about to see another shake-up at the top? Meanwhile, out West, premier Daniel Smith is stirring things up in a whole other way. Her government introduced legislation making it easier for Albertans to call referendums, even ones on separation from Canada. Indigenous leaders are warning this violates treaty commitments. While hundreds rallied at the legislator, weaving Alberta flags in support, and even some American ones were in the crowd too.

Julia Pennella:

The fun just never stops in Canadian politics. Joining me today is Pierce Collier, liberal Strategist. We'll be diving into it all the fallout, the future and what this moment says about where Canada's headed Quick heads up. This episode was recorded on April 30th 2025. So, while the news may have changed since this conversation was recorded. The thoughts and ideas still remain relevant. So let's talk politics with Pierce Collier. Let's Talk Politics with Pierce Collier. Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of let's Talk Politics. Today we have a very special guest fresh off the campaign trail. I have Pierce Collier joining us. He's a liberal strategist and political insider and we're going to be talking about what happened on the campaign trail, what his thoughts were around the results. We'll be diving into a little bit of what happened liberally, conservatively and the fall of the NDP. So, pierce, thanks so much for joining us.

Pierce Collier:

Thanks, julie, a pleasure to be with you.

Julia Pennella:

Really excited for this conversation. So, pierce, you were working in the Peel region on the campaign. What were you hearing at the doors, and was this the outcome that you expected?

Pierce Collier:

around affordability even, and others. Crime was certainly the thing that we were hearing the most on the doors in Mississauga Lakeshore. People had seen break-ins and car thefts and many things over the last few years and they saw them in an increasing fashion. So I think that by far that was the number one issue that we were hearing. I think in terms of the outcome, it's probably around what we were expecting.

Pierce Collier:

We always knew it was a tough riding and so historically, mississauga Lakeshore often where conservatives look to break in if they're going to break into Mississauga and break into Peel at large, the Conservatives could pick up. But it was good in a way that it gave our team extra urgency to work harder and harder in our doors and just really not let up and not let the national polls impact our thinking, because I think that that sort of sometimes you know when you look at your poll numbers and you're well-added nationally, people on local campaigns sometimes make it comfortable and think, oh, we're going to be safe. But certainly we didn't want to do that in a place like Mississauga Lakeshore.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said, and both you and I have worked on campaigns. You can't take any door for granted. You can't take any phone call for granted. So it's great you ran a strong campaign out there. We're going to talk about a little bit what happened in Peel Region, but as we talk I think it's a great segue into the national campaign and the numbers that happened there. A lot of polls were projecting a liberal majority. We obviously saw a consecutive minority. Was this also something you were expecting or were you really? I know you're a liberal so you might be a little bit biased, but were you expecting that minority?

Pierce Collier:

Yeah, so in full disclosure. Of course, as you mentioned, I am a liberal and if that wasn't obvious from my talk about the campaign but yeah, I am a lifelong liberal, so I get that on the record. But it was interesting, right, because I think in the beginning of the campaign we saw those poll numbers go up and there were a lot of talks of majority. I think, though, what a lot of folks missed, because I think the pollsters got it right nationally just about. I mean, they got us at, you know, the liberals around 43, 44. Conservatives maybe a point or two higher than what had been predicted. I think a lot of them had the Tories at about 39, 40. I think they finished with like 41. So I think that, overall, the pollsters got it just about right.

Pierce Collier:

I think what a lot of folks missed, though, is that this is a very different election than what we've seen in a long time. It was very much a two-party election, which, again, we haven't seen, and I can't remember the last time we would have seen it. The NDP has usually always been a factor. We've had other parties pop up on the scene over the last few decades, so it was very interesting to see that sort of vote coalesce around two camps and so as a result of that you know normally anything over 40, you're getting majority government, not in this election. It's a very unique election. I think you're seeing a bit of time of transition in Canadian politics for that reason, where the progressive vote is coalesced.

Pierce Collier:

Whether it stays or not, you know, is anyone's guess, but certainly I think that for this campaign the pollsters got it right. We got a result that we like and we wanted, but it just didn't pan out in the C count right. It just didn't come out in the C count. And you see votes. You still see some vote splits, like, for example, in Windsor, windsor-tucumseh and in Kitchener Center. I mean these are places that generally aren't conservative but the conservatives won because of vote splits on the progressive side and places where the NDP generally has a stronger, or in Kitchener, in the case of Kitchener Center, the Greens have a stronger ground game. So as a result, you know you had that splintering of the vote and the Conservatives were able to sneak up and win some of those areas too. So I would say it's a result we like, it's a result we wanted, but it would have been nice, of course, to get those extra three seats to get a majority. But again it's a different election and things fanned out, I would say, a little differently than the otherwise would.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, good point, and you know you've worked in minority governments. You're going to be potentially working in the next one. I want to go back a few months Back in December 2024, even early January 2025, conservatives were up 25-point lead. Obviously got demolished once Carney was thrown into the race here. But what was morale like working in the government, in the Trudeau government more specifically, during that time? Like going back to thinking at that time, to where we are today? Did you think this was even possible?

Pierce Collier:

uh, no, no, to be frank, I didn think that and I don't think this is any secret that amongst those who were working in Ottawa that the party was not in the greatest of shape, you'd have to have very significant blinders on to think otherwise. Being down 25 points, you know, the morale amongst many staff and different quarters was very low. So no thinking about where we were then versus now, it is a bit surreal to think about. It goes to show that a change in leader and a refresh can work, and there were a lot of voices, I think, around at that time who were saying well, it's not a surefire thing, it's. You know, kim Campbell came in after Brian Mulroney and she wasn't able to turn it around. It was worse. So maybe that's what could happen here.

Pierce Collier:

But I think that you just never know right, you don't know what can happen. So you can't write it off as oh well, if you put in a new leader, it's the same party. I mean, the conservatives try to make that argument and I think they had some success with that in certain corners of the country that it's a new leader, but it's the same party and it's the same people and it's the same thing. And so, as a result, you're not going to get change and whatever. And I think the context is also important too.

Pierce Collier:

I think that Trump, the Trump factor, was real here and people had a fresh look at the options that were on the table, and change wasn't necessarily the number one thing for a lot of people anymore, it was stability. And I think that when people look at someone like Polyev, who I think his favorability was always a little weak, like I don't think that he was a beloved leader just that people were so tired of Trudeau and his government that they were willing to take a second look at him and hold their nose and bow for him, just in any case, to get that change. So, yeah, I guess to answer your question, it's a little surreal to be here, but Again showing how a new face and a new approach can really shake things up.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, well said and I think that makes the victory even sweeter to see how down the polls were and then to come back from that. And yeah, to your point about Polyev it's a reoccurring piece that came up in a lot of my conversations is it didn't seem people were really with him. It was a I don't want to vote for Trudeau vote rather than actually understanding and maybe believing some of the or agreeing with the platform ideas and even just how he ran his campaign. Another big factor that comes up in my conversation is the complete turnoff of the female vote and comments around women, just even his behavior towards reporters. All of these things I think Canadians really take into account. And, to your point as well, the two party system that we seem to have merged into with this election was a huge factor and it maybe even raises questions. Are we moving similar to the American approach? But that could be a conversation for another day.

Julia Pennella:

I want to dive into the voter turnout and we saw record numbers of voter turnout, especially in the advance polls over 7 million people, which is why a lot of news outlets were holding off, calling the type of government that would be formed. I know a lot of campaign offices were biting their fingernails because it really came down to and we'll get into in Newfoundland 12 votes for one riding, other ridings less than a thousand. But I want to ask more specifically is it the liberal strategy to secure the advanced poll vote, or do you think Mark Carney was just that stable hand people wanted in this moment and people knew I'm going to go vote for him and didn't even need to be convinced otherwise. So yeah, is it liberal strategy or the Mark Carney effect that brought people to advance polls?

Pierce Collier:

So it's interesting I don't know that my only sort of education or my only sort of approach to advance polls is just to get as many people out as you can, and I do that from a logical perspective that if you get more people out on advance polls, then that's less people you have to worry about on election day. Election day is chaotic. Election day, you have a ton of things going on. You're trying to get out as much vote as you can. So many things can happen. So many things can easily go off the rails. You only have so much time to focus on getting out that vote. You have four days with advanced polls, right. So the more you make use of that, the easier it is on an E-Day and the more likely, therefore, you are to win because you'll have more of your vote in the bank. So that's the approach I take. Every party should be taking that approach. Every party should be taking the approach of get what you can out on E-Day, because it basically is like you have five election days and so for us in Mississauga, we got the most vote out in Mississauga. We were the highest. Mississauga Lakeshore of all, the Mississauga ridings was the highest. Advanced polls are something that I'd put a lot of effort into this time because in the last couple of campaigns I felt that this is a one area we could have done better on was getting more of our vote out during that advance poll. So it was something for me personally at Mississauga Lakeshore to do in conjunction with our field manager, who really him and I shared the same philosophy. So we really worked hard every day. That weekend it was Easter weekend, so it was a little weird, but it meant also people had the time to go do it, because there were four days they had the time to be able to go out and vote, so we really pushed to get folks out. So I don't know if it's an overall liberal strategy or an overall conservative strategy, but it should be. It absolutely should be. And you're right, the party this time did a really good job across the country not just us in Lakeshore, but across the country, not just just us in Lakeshore, but but across the country. And getting the advance vote out. And it's interesting because I'm surprised that the conservatives have not caught on to this, have not done better with this, like they have a significant amount again Lakeshore. I mean they've got twenty nine thousand votes, they would have had, I would assume, quite a bit of vote ID. So I don't know why they still lag behind.

Pierce Collier:

Because you know to your point about waiting for some of these advanced polls to come in. Even for us, I mean, on election day, some of our polls, we were getting the reports after the polls closed, of course, from our scrutineers. They were neck and neck. But once the advance came in, I mean, we were hundreds ahead. So we knew we had won, just based on that, so we're able to send Charles out there and make his victory speech, because we knew, just based on those numbers, there was no way that the conservatives in the riding could actually win, based on what we're seeing. So I'm surprised that they don't take the same approach, because I think it is. You got to look at it like it's five election days and by doing that, by getting that vote out, it just makes your E-Day so much better and it increases your chances of winning because, like I said, e-day goes off the rails.

Julia Pennella:

Well said and I appreciate that. Again, insider intel, because watching it, if you don't work in campaigns, you don't understand the complexities of door knocking and coordinating and making sure you're getting into your areas and bringing the vote. Like it's called GOTV get out to vote for a reason. So I appreciate that, intel. What did you think the Mark Carney effect had on your region?

Pierce Collier:

more specifically, well, I think it was good. I think his popularity was really good. A lot of people like Carney to the point where you know the past campaigns with Trudeau, certain areas he wasn't that popular in, so certain campaigns had to dance around whether to put his name on things or face on things. We didn't have to worry about that with Carney this time. We knew he was likable, we knew that he helped carry our message of economic focus, fighting Donald Trump and all the things, all the themes that we really wanted to get out in this campaign. So I think it absolutely did help. Especially for those voters who were concerned with Donald Trump.

Pierce Collier:

He was seen as sort of the beacon and I think that for a lot of people right, especially in a riding like ours in Lakeshore, for a lot of these people they look at it from the point of view of you know, look at your CV and your experience who, logically, is the best to take on Donald Trump? Is it Mark Carney who steered us through the recession, who ran two central banks for G7 countries, who has all this private and public experience around the economy? Or do you want somebody who is a backbencher? Only has ever been. And so for those voters and I think that's why we made so many inroads with older voters who had generally in the past historically been conservative, is because they looked at it from that perspective of CDs. So yeah, to your point, the Mark Carney effect absolutely was real.

Pierce Collier:

I think it absolutely helped stabilize us, bring us back from that 25-point deficit that we were in that you pointed out. So without that I think it would have been challenging. Who knows where we would have been. So he is a really qualified leader. That's one of the things I mean I said to somebody just from a non-partisan perspective. He's probably one of the most qualified people we've ever seen run for prime minister in this country and I think that is respected and noticed by most Canadians who do want somebody qualified to run the country, especially in the face of the threats that we're seeing. So yeah, it was absolutely a big factor.

Julia Pennella:

Good and a lot of combination of things. Like you said, good candidate, you ran a really strong campaign, so shout out to Pierce. If anyone needs campaign run, call him up. But I want to go into how the campaigns were run more nationally through all the major parties. So in your opinion, how big the major major parties run their campaigns this time around, maybe compared to last campaigns that you've seen and what stood out to you good or bad from each of the parties?

Pierce Collier:

yeah, so I'll go through them one by one. So I think for our campaign, I think certainly in the earlier stages, they really set the foundation that the campaign was about Trump, and actually maybe I'll just even back up further than that Look, the voters are the ones who set the issues right. Parties maybe can influence where things go in a certain way, but voters ultimately set the issue set right. Like we don't tell voters what to believe in, they told us very loud and clear that Trump was their number one concern. Tariffs were their number one concern, still concerned about affordability, still concerned about crime, still concerned about all these things. But that was their number one issue and only one party decided to get on that issue set really, and that was Carney. And they established that early in the campaign. So put it in people early that Kearney is the guy who's going to fight against Trump. He's a guy who we can have there negotiating, that we can trust. Polyab didn't talk about the issue and he sort of danced around having to deal with Trump, tried to make the campaign about affordability. They really worked against the tide. They had some success with that. But I think that one of the things the liberals did well and Carney did well was really just was getting a grasp of that issue set. What I would say, though, I wish nationally we maybe have kept the gas on a little more on that issue set, but I understand there were probably arguments inside. I don't know if this is an any good authority, but I assume some of the arguments inside the national campaign would have been do we want to overplay our hand on Trump? That could backfire Like I get what the trials and tribulations would have been around that. But I think I would have liked to have seen us maybe continue on that message in the later stages of the campaign, as opposed to talking about platform and things that people just really don't necessarily flew into as much, whereas we knew from every indication, from polling to whatever, that Trump and the tariffs were number one. So I liked what the liberals did, what our campaign did nationally there.

Pierce Collier:

For the conservatives, one thing they did well but they did it too late was they started to pivot away from. They came to the realization that Polyev was a drag on their numbers, like more people didn't like Polyev than didn't want change from the conservative party. So they started to do a bit of a pivot. They took the slogans off his podium and just did the make leaf with the blue. They tried to make him more state like statesman, like they did well in the debate. So I think that they got a clue on that, but they just waited too late to do it.

Pierce Collier:

And what I didn't like? They still didn't talk about the issues. They still didn't talk about Trump, they still didn't talk about tariffs. They were going against the tide of the voters. The voters, the people of the country, wanted to talk about Trump and tariffs, and Polyev and his party wanted to talk about something else. So that's what I think was really bad.

Pierce Collier:

I think it was a moment of just poor political savvy. I know Jenny Byrne and the conservatives they have under Polyev very much have their own doctrine and how they do things, but it's not a winner, right you? You have to get at least somewhere on the message and they they chose not to do that from the NDP I mean I don't really know where to begin on that the NDP just really bad overall, because not only did they collapse, not only did Singh lose his seat, but the vote collapsed. They're really in the worst position they could be in, like I really don't know what to say.

Pierce Collier:

There's not one bright light for the NDP really coming out of this From their perspective. I think their goose was cooked before this campaign. I think that we already had seen a coalescing of that progressive vote around the liberals and I don't think there was anything they could do to stop it, and certainly they didn't. I mean, whatever it was they could have done, they didn't do it. I'll give Singh credit for it. I mean, he really tried to fight back in some of those debates, really went against the conservatives, which some people argue he needed to go more against the liberals, and maybe from a political perspective that's true, but I don't think there was anything he could have really done. I think the goose is cooked. The only thing he could have done to save the party was if he had pulled the plug in the fall, and he chose not to do that.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, good points all around and I want to weigh in a few things on the conservatives specifically. I think Polyev just got a lot of bad advice. To be honest, I think his campaign was just so hellbent on sticking with this anti-Trudeau message even though the candidate had switched. It had to come up in the debate where Carney had to say very reminiscent of the American campaign where Kamala had to defend herself I'm not Joe Biden. Carney did the, I'm not Trudeau.

Julia Pennella:

There was that element and I was looking back I am working with Moms at Work advocacy group and keeping everybody up to date with the news and I remember when Trump came out with the tariffs, which were on and off throughout the campaign. But I was looking at what every party was saying and I went on the conservative website and I think that day they announced something about alcohol, nothing about the tariffs, no acknowledgement of it. Another big issue happened and they put on an announcement about bringing back plastic straws. Like I understand, they had a very specific voter base and they wanted to cultivate that. But the fact that there was not that wake up call to switch and when it was, it was too late in the campaign, I think, was to their detriment and we saw that in the numbers with his riding specifically his own riding did not want him, even though the Conservatives did have some of the highest voting they'd seen since the Mulroney and even above Harper. But yeah, a lot of things were at play that happened.

Julia Pennella:

I think he also was shapeshifting a lot. He lost his glasses. Then we started seeing a little bit more gray hair coming in, I think to try and match that I don't want to say father figure of Carney, but he was called Big Daddy on the campaign trail but I think there was a bit more of attempt to make him look more mature and put away that 20 year career politician vibe and the NDP really unfortunate. I agree with you. I think Singh should have stepped down sooner and he didn't lose his riding by a little bit, he lost by a lot and I think the NDP have a lot to rebuild from here. So it's going to be interesting to see the next steps. But I want to pick your brain a little bit about the Conservatives and we talked about some. We talked about some of the issues here. But do you think they're going to pivot after this or are they going to double down on their current strategy?

Pierce Collier:

Yeah, I totally agree with what you said. It was every time that he should have been talking about the tariffs, about Trump, what his approach would be, what the conservative approach would be. Every time he had an opportunity he pivoted away to something else. He pivoted away to something that most Canadians do not care about, or at least do not care about in the level in which he wanted them to right. So you mentioned plastic straws a great example. Plastic straws something that their base is sort of raw about, but you know the average Joe public, it's not their number one issue. And if you're running a campaign when we're facing serious threats to our sovereignty and you're talking about plastic straws, you're going against the tide of the voters and when you do that, you lose. I can't think of a campaign in history, at least in recent history, where a leader who chose not to talk about the issues that people cared about the campaign question where they want. I don't think it's a winning strategy. And I think to your point. Yeah, he got bad advice, but I think that Jenny Byrne one thing people forget about Jenny Byrne this is not the first time that she sort of missed the mark. I think back to 2015, when Stephen Harper, who had a really good lock on the GTA at that point, thanks to efforts by Jason Kenney and some others in his cabinet to really cultivate votes in different multicultural communities, where Jenny Byrne sort of blew that all out of the water by pushing this snitch line. The cultural barbaric practices snitch line came out of nowhere. I don't know why they needed it. It wasn't really to shore up any votes and it was a foolish, one of the most foolish decisions that they had made. It really cost them a lot of votes. And so this is not the first time Jenny Byrne and, look, I don't know her personally, so I don't know what drives her or what motivates her. But what I know for sure is that this is now two campaigns where they've not run on the question. They've proposed divisive policies and it doesn't serve their interests. They lose when they do that. It just doesn't, from a political perspective, make any sense. So, look, I mean, if I was a conservative I'd be really upset about blowing a 25-point lead, because it really didn't have to be this way.

Pierce Collier:

I do firmly believe that if Aliyev had gotten on this question to some extent, that this would have been a much tighter election in terms of sea count, I think he could have won. I think he absolutely could have won this election. There's a lot of conservatives out there who say and I hear from some of them back home in Newfoundland, and some of them say, well, if it wasn't for Trump, polyev would have won. I say to them and I say to myself these guys have to realize that, again, the voters set the issues, it's not the liberals. The voters set the issues and if you want to win the election and you want to win the votes, you need to talk about the issues people care about and it just purely is as simple as that. And if Pauliath had done that, then he absolutely could have been prime minister. You know, like, for us who follow politics, we see some of the creeping 51st state people who are involved on the fringes of the conservative party, but most people don't know that. Most people don't question Polyeth's patriotism. They believe that the Conservatives can represent just as well as the Liberals can. So you know, again, he could have been prime minister had he just decided to talk about those things.

Pierce Collier:

I think the second part of your question was what does this look like? I think the Conservatives will. They continue down this path? And I mean, if you had asked me this question on election night, I probably would have said no, I would think they would pivot and they would change. But now, after two days or three days after, and I see Jamil Javani and Andrew Scheer going out and saying that it's Doug Ford's fault, or it's Tim Houston's fault, or it's everybody else's fault, but ours it's just loser talk. It's absolute loser talk from people who have won nothing and they should pivot. They should open up and become a big tan. They should listen to people like I mean, say what you want about doug ford. The guy's a winner. The guy won three majority governments. Tim houston won two majority governments.

Pierce Collier:

These are people who understand in their regions, they understand the political context and they've won elections and in that's, all that matters is that you win elections. If you don't win elections, you don't get to do anything. You don't get to put any of your thought out policies or whatever. You don't get to do any of that if you don't win. So these people need to start listening to winners. They should pivot, but you know they're going to do what they're going to do and it's going to be interesting to see this bit of a civil war now play out in the conservative tent, because, yeah, those civil wars are very destructive. We've had them in our party, the conservatives had them in their party. It stopped great. So it'll be interesting to see how they'll play out.

Julia Pennella:

Yeah, good points and I'm actually glad you kind of brought that up. There's been a sore loser mentality from the Conservatives and a lack of accountability, like accept what happened, and I think the disconnect and I talked about this with an NDP strategist I don't think the Conservatives understand there's a disconnect and there's a difference between a Tory in Ontario versus a Tory in Alberta. The mentality is so, so different and we saw that play out when Scheer was the leader of the party, when Aaron O'Toole was the leader of the party. There were differences and I think a question I'm going to have some conservative strategists on the podcast as well I think maybe the question is less do you think Pierre Polyev should be the leader and pivot? And maybe they should pivot with Jenny Byrne, Because I think, if I'm not mistaken, she also ran O'Toole's campaign and he lost as well.

Julia Pennella:

So there's something and this is what I try to explain to people outside of politics because I think there's that illusion that, yes, the leader is there and they make the executive decisions, but at the end of the day, the leader has a team around them that gives them advice and they are wholeheartedly going to believe that advice unless someone tells them otherwise and we talk about the Ottawa bubble. It's a very real factor and I hope the Conservatives wake up to that. I hope the Liberals don't fall back into that pattern because I think there was some disillusion when Trudeau was leader about where the numbers and the parties were going. You and I worked on tough campaigns in the 905. We're going to get into that. But yeah, there's a disconnect oftentimes and I hope that we don't fall into that fallacy.

Julia Pennella:

Well, that's a wrap on this episode, but don't go too far. Pierce is back with us for part two, as we keep digging into one of Canada's most historic elections. We're breaking down the riding data from Newfoundland and Labrador to Windsor, From surprising flips to razor-thin margins. There's a lot to unpack, so make sure to tune in. For part two. I'm your host, Julia Pinie panella, and that was let's talk politics.